086 - Improving continuously with agile coach Kimbaly St. Matthew-Daniel

Veteran agile coach Kimbaly St. Matthew-Daniel breaks down how to help teams evolve from waterfall deployment to more agile methods, how to remake your meetings to be more effective and sound advice on how to be more human at times of uncertainty.

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Josh Robles:

Hello and welcome to All Hands on Tech. I'm Josh Robles. Today we get to hear from agile coach, Kimbaly St. Matthew-Daniel, as she offers her approach to fixing broken processes and streamlining the software engineering workflow. Let's take a listen.

Thanks for joining us, Kimbaly.

Kimbaly S:

Hey, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Josh Robles:

Let's jump right in. How did you get into agile?

Kimbaly S:

Well, when I started with 3M back in 2014, they were doing Waterfall, no real structure. They brought in some professionals from Scrum Inc. And you know, they started conversations about a natural transformation within the organization. My role at the time was a product analyst because I had former business analyst experience, and so they tapped me for that role, and coming into the company whereby they were getting ready to do a transition it was like, "How do we leverage this expertise?" And because I had experience working directly with customers and also dev teams, but in requirements, documentation, things of that nature, it felt natural for me to transition into the product owner role because they were really rigid in that and not in a bad way, but they wanted to make sure that if they were going to transition, they were going to do scrum right. And so they phased into the three roles and made sure that everybody who was working within their HTD department, they aligned with one of those roles, and so product owner was one that I aligned with because of my experience.

And so that was it. It started from there, 2014, then from then I've held roles from a scrum master to an agile culture role and that's where I am today. I think it's been a remarkable journey and I know that I've tapped into something that I love. I love coaching. I love helping, not just at the team level, but also across enterprise. It's something that I know that I can... I plan to continue to pursue.

And more so, it's provided an opportunity for me to completely understand how effective coaching can be on a personal and professional level, because whenever I work with my teams, it's like, "How can I tap into them being human as well and not just a person on the well-oiled machine or not." I want to coach them to be effective and the best way to do that, especially in a pandemic is to better understand that they're people.

Josh Robles:

I love that. The mention of just referring to them and, and just treating them less like an asset of the company and more like the human and creating those opportunities with them. How do you do that with COVID happening and everyone going online? All that stuff. How has that shifted through COVID?

Kimbaly S:

Well, I really try to focus on the bottom line. I was a project manager back in my earlier days and so I don't really like to tell employers that now because whenever they see you as a project manager, they think that you're just going to drive project management and that's it. And I don't like to get hung up on process, but I do like to focus on satisfying the customer, and while also making sure that the people that I'm working with, and ultimately for, because as a servant leader... From a scrum master perspective or an agile coach, you want to make sure that they have what they need and the necessary resources in order to be successful.

So I always I have one-on-ones consistently, although I'm not at that managerial level, I still feel like I owe it to them whereby if I'm operating an agile coach role and I have a couple PMOs or project product owners across a program that I am directly working with, or if it's some scrum masters, or a couple of software engineers that I'm working with down at the team level, I want to make sure that I'm understanding what their needs are.

So constant one on ones. I want to make sure that I'm coaching to the organization. What are the goals that we're trying to hit? How are we going to best hit those? What do you need? Do we set up value stream maps so to better understand where the money is going to be, and we're going to actually deliver it and provide different tools on how we can better meet those engagements as well. Whether it's talking about scope creep or the burnup or providing burndowns, I want to make sure that we're having the necessary conversations that are also going to make them feel like they're contributing to the bottom line while also making it very, very visible what that bottom line is.

And so having those kinds of conversations during a pandemic, I think is really important because you want to make sure that you're still pushing the needle towards change, and while also bringing some value to the company and investing in them as well. Because if you're having these necessary conversations, like what tools to use or how do we best paint that picture? Going back to value stream mapping, how do we best paint that picture about what's going to be resourceful, or where our money is going to be, or where that value is. Just helping them tie it back together.

That alone helps give them some purpose, because there are a lot of people who don't understand that who are working at home right now, and because they can't walk around to a cubicle whereby their manager is sitting or the director, depending on how flat the organization is, they can't go to those people now. Now they're online and everybody's really busy. And so it's my role and I really find a lot of joy in that to be able to bridge that gap whereby they can't have those necessary in the moment conversations, I can still help them understand what change looks like from their perspective and how they can help incite that within their company as well.

Josh Robles:

Yeah. I really like the fact of painting the broad picture and making sure that there's clarity upfront. How do you handle that when things start getting messy as a agile coach? I'm just curious how you tackle that.

Kimbaly S:

Yeah. I think communication is really important. I joke and when I tell people, "I make adults talk." I encourage adults to have adult conversations. I encourage adults to have professional conversations to connect and so that's a large part of it. When things get messy, I'm going to encourage adults to have adult conversations. I'm going to encourage adults to talk, whether that's in their stand-ups or I have some teams that are doing... I don't know if you're familiar with Can Plan, but I had a team that was like, "They were doing [inaudible 00:07:09]." But they wanted to keep some structure too, but there was a need for some consistent conversation. So like, "We need to get this right, people." So I'm always looking up different models or processes that are still lean, that works for them so that we can eliminate the mess.

Let's speak to the mess, let's address the mess. Let's focus on change. And again, that bottom line, because that's what's really important, that's why we're in business. We're in the business of making money. When we have people that are going to help us make that money, but we need to invest in our people. So I want to do everything that I can from their perspective to ensure that that's happening so that I can make sure that the resources are happy. So if it gets messy, let's converse. We're going to do that. Any meeting necessary, how are we going to do that? Let's change the process. If vanilla scrum isn't working, let's change the something just to ensure that, we're having the conversations that we're identifying any impediments and we're raising those, that we're being consistent with how we track those and that we're having a little bit of fun too, because I think that's really important.

Just going back to your last question, one thing that I do too which is pull people back in and tap into that human aspect is I tell jokes, typically at the start of every meeting that I'll have. Especially if it's in the beginning of the day and I'm just touching people like at the very start. You come in, nine o'clock in the morning, no matter what coast you're on. If it's the first call you want to hit them with something light and fun. And so I try to take bring something cheerful into it. And so that's how I roll, that's a part of my personality. I think oftentimes when we are home, we get stuck behind a closed door or maybe a closet, because I used to take calls when I was sitting in the closet when the pandemic first, yeah cut out.

And then yeah, I would be in the closet behind a closed door or sitting in a foyer and I had one kid to the left and another kid to the right, and tell them about how your day is really going. Like, "Guys, you don't believe leave this. I have another child over here that's working on science, another child over here that's writing papers, another one's walking up to me talking about how they just went to the potty." And I how can I make this a part of life, but make it a part of work, still tell a story, make people feel included in. And I mean, it really does help drive things. I read an article that was talking about how there are people who are going into organizations to teach managers how to lead more effectively, and how do you do that? It's by being human, laughing, you know? And so I bring that into my model as a coach, as an advisor, as a mentor and it really does work.

Josh Robles:

Yeah, no and that... I think it's so important right now. I feel like a lot of companies are really recognizing that there's got to be a change. I'm just curious how you go about making that change that you were just talking about a little earlier if their process just isn't working at its core? Can you break down how you formulate the plan and start helping that team?

Kimbaly S:

Take them through their journey? Their transformation journey?

Josh Robles:

Yeah.

Kimbaly S:

Yeah. I haven't been a part of an organization where that happens at a team level, usually that happens across a program or an enterprise. And so if that's the case, those conversations are already happening, like management is already starting to see how they're not... Teams aren't hitting their deadlines or programs are failing or teams are working in different directions. Some are doing Wagile, some are doing Waterfall, some are doing scrums, some are doing TDD and they're already seeing signs that things are just amiss and you have... The teams that need to talk to each other and communicate and work effectively together, they're working on the same program or project in some cases, or product and they're just missing their dates or there's a lot of tech debt, you know?

And so if those things are happening, they are telltale signs that the process needs to change and things need to be refined. And so me coming into an organization like that, or being a part of an organization who's gone through many changes like that, I know what those signs look like, I've heard some of those conversations.

And so it started with a pocket of the organization. So let's take a 3M, for example, we had a hub in Utah, you have a hub in Maryland, and a hub in Georgia, and then a few other spread sporadically out throughout the nation. And so they started with a hub, the hub in Utah, and they flew selective coaches into that hub and they stood up all of these teams. I think from that hub came out 30 plus, and then we have a hub in Albany.

And so it's aligning everybody on, what does agile look like? I mentioned Scrum Inc. coming in and trying to start those conversations. And so you have a professional that's going to help lead the charge, identifying what's the knowledge across all of you individuals? what do you really know about scrum? How effective do you think it can be if the organization goes in that direction? Because you want to have buy-in. You don't want to just come in and just tell everybody that, "oh, what you're doing is completely wrong. I would never do it. You're never going to make money. You're not earning any value. You're not servicing your customer, just scrap it all." So you want to get buy-in from those people who have been doing it. So I think asking the right questions, do you know what scrum is? So what's some of the benefits? What are some of the expected outcomes? Having those conversations, dividing those people up.

And then once you have that level of expertise across, then you're able to coach effectively to a target audience. And then those people who are a little bit more familiar with the process, maybe they become subject matter experts, you start there. You pique their interests, ask them... "You want to be certified?" 3M is already going the direction of select roles. Anyway, you have your subject matter experts, your product owner, your scrum master, you have a role of the manager, understanding what those are, what those expected outcomes are and those roles and responsibilities and ensuring that people are being held accountable to that, essentially.

So identifying your roles, you talk about your events and what are those... Who are those involved parties? What are some of the things that you can expect whenever you attend? What kind of conversations should you have? What are some of the things that you should look out for? How should you escalate impediments? What does that look like? Whenever you create a kanban board or a sprint board, or a product board, who's involved?

And so you have these conversations across a program, or they don't even know that they're program yet because you're still organizing them and you're taking them through that storming journey and they get invested and now they're rallying around what their roles are, and they're rallying around who's responsible? And who's accountable? And then they're spinning up these events, and they're putting them on their calendar and they're identifying a person who's going to help facilitate and have those conversations.

And now they're either certified or they're not, but they're interested because they're a part of something different, of a different movement. And they see the autonomy and the buy-in that they have, because again, you're not coming in telling them that what they're doing is wrong and that all of these things have to change. You're allowing them to feed you so that they have an idea of the directions they can go in and not being led, but they're actually a part of that process. And so that's really important whenever you're taking a company through a transformation journey, because you want to make sure that they understand where you're taking them and that they are part of that journey as well. And so having them contribute to that journey and so you exactly where they want to go and how they see themselves better going in there. All I'm doing is help setting up the pieces.

We have our roles, we talked about the core events and who's going to be where? And what are some of the expected outcomes and how you go about leveraging certain resources at your scrumble or scrum or your release train engineers. Depending on what you're doing. If you're doing SAFe®️ or you're doing scrum you want to make sure that you at least know who's who and what they're responsible for, hold them accountable. And then what are the expected outcomes? And what are some of the value that you're trying to have? And once you get that going, and you have all of the necessary cadence, and you've established that across the program, everybody understands when their release is going to be, the sprint review for the system is on the calendar.

They know they have a certain timeline by which they're going to do their demos and they're becoming more structured and more organized, and they've gone through a couple iterations with that. And they know, "I was a bit long-winded. I didn't solicit information from the stakeholders and I want to do that better next time." And they go back and they have retrospectives and they talk about these things. It doesn't come instantaneously. It happens over time, whereby in the beginning, they're still trying to learn their role, but I gather in a month, they're going to start to understand, "I was not as accountable as I was before when I initially started." And so you do that after a month and you come back to them, "Where were you 30 days ago? Where are you now? Where do you still see yourself going??"

And you do that in your 60 day mark. "Where were you? Where are you now? Where do you see yourself going?" By the time they get to that 90 day mark, they've made a complete 360. What they were doing before is... They understand and they can tell you some of those gaps. They were not making their delivery. They were working on a lot of tech debt. Their backlog was becoming more like a sustainability backlog and there were a lot of bugs that they were trying to resolve instead of working on new products and new features. They were still working in a project mindset versus a product mindset. And so those are the types of things that I try to help companies see whenever I take them through a transformation journey, and it's really important that they understand that they have a voice in what that journey looks like too, so that they know the value that they ultimately are trying to bring to their company.

Josh Robles:

That was awesome. So a couple things that I liked out of there, one is you brought up helping them see the difference with between a product team and a project team. Is that what you said?

Kimbaly S:

Yeah.

Josh Robles:

Yeah. Can you dive into that a little bit?

Kimbaly S:

Yes. So a lot of [inaudible 00:18:17] and I suggest like your audience pick up Mik Kersten's book From Project to Product. It's a really good book and I think it's... It's in addition to team psychologies, but that's painting in the way that organizations want to go towards if they want to start measuring value stream and SAFe®️ talks a little bit about this too, but if you want to change the organization, change the mindset, don't work at such a granular level, whereby you just focused on the project. You want to focus on the product. You have multiple teams that are feeding into this product. They're way more equipped. They're not working down... Because most teams, whenever they work on a project, they think it's just a feature. "I'm only going to work on this one thing that when I click this button, it's going to pop up something else." And like, "Oh, wow. That was our project and we're great."

No, we're in the business of making products. I don't want to just have an app that tells me what my glucose level is. I want an app that tells me that my glucose level is this. I need to get ready to eat something because my glucose level is dropping. These are the types of foods that are going to help contribute by a certain point or in sugar value that are going to increase my glucose levels so that I can get to a more stable sugar level. So yeah, that's a product at a scale. it's not just focused on like that small subset of feature work, and I think a lot of companies are seeing that they want to become more product-focused because that's where the value is. That's where the big money is and that's where the longevity is. And it's not on, again, those one-click features that project teams are focused on. A lot of the value is in the product and building those tools that are essentially going to really provide some.

And I know I keep saying this, but it's the value to the market and it keeps them competitive as well. Because for one healthcare company, you can guarantee that there are two or three who are competing with you that are building the same thing at a faster pace. Only they have more resources, just coming back from a product perspective, they have more resources that are pumped into it because they're focused on how they're going to deliver value at a certain period of time. This goes back to the whole value stream piece. They can tell you exactly what they plan to deliver, when they plan to deliver it, and who they plan to deliver it to. And when you're focused on being project-focused, you're not really worried about those types of things and you're not having those really important vital conversations.

And, I mean, I think it's really important that as a coach too, at whatever scale, like you're having those conversations with leadership so that they can see the value in that and they can get behind it because ultimately they're going to be the ones who are making those conversations along with marketing, and that are having those conversations with the customers to get them really ramped up and bought into the idea.

Josh Robles:

It is really easy even to be focused on your minute piece rather than the solution of all of it combined, and so I really like that. Another thing that you've brought up a handful of times is letting the team define what success looks like and build their own roadmap, and it seems heavily reliant on just giving them ownership of what their organization needs to look like. So how do you go about that?

Kimbaly S:

Yeah. No, I think SAFe®️ does a really good job of this because they have their PI planning and they bring everybody to the table so that they can have an understanding across the program level. Like, "What's required?" And when is it expected to be delivered? And so from a PMO perspective at the business, they're like, "Okay, I want this thing done and I want it done by X date." And they are very clear and effective at communicating that I think for the teams to ensure that they have buy-in, and more clarity into that process they have to have a seat at the table too, and I used that same concept whenever I spun up a diversity inclusion luncheon, and it just stuck because everybody should have a seat at the table.

If you're in a professional setting, you want to make sure that you can provide some conversation, and I have technical software engineers who if you had it their way, all the information would be single-threaded and they would become bottlenecks and they would go out on the holiday, and the information just went right along with them. So if everyone had a seat at the table and everybody felt like they were a part of that process, and there was a lot of just creativity just flowing. The ideas wouldn't come from that one technical sub software engineer or that tech lead that would come from the whole team. Not just the architect can provide very valuable information when you're talking about solutions delivery. It's going to be a software engineer who's fresh out of university who's been with the company for probably three months,.

And I think that those big planning meetings, if they can be really effective scheduled appropriately, you bake some time whereby you can take some stretch breaks and just have conversation for a little bit. It could be really effective because if you just have a really long meeting and you don't have the right people there, chances are you'll probably have two or three more very long meetings where the right people won't be there, and you're going to cross hairs and no really creative ideas are going to come out of that. So I think for me, I've had a lot of success by having a two hour meeting, the right people are there and it's not limited. The invitation is extended to the entire team, everybody who's going to be contributing to the product and everyone's valued. Everyone is valued and their input is valued and they're encouraged to provide input.

I mean, because I mentioned we're in the business of making money and providing value to our customers, no matter what industry you're working in, that's ultimately what you want to do, and then you want to acquire the best talent. And so if you're going to have that idea where you're going to try and bring the best talent in, bring the best talent in. Let them seat at the table, let them drive some of the conversation, and let them provide input to what you, what it is that you're trying to deliver so that they can help you get there faster. Maybe they see an angle that you don't.

And again, like I mentioned, I've had a lot of success with just having those well organized meetings. They're scheduled appropriately. You have the right people there. You're not stepping on a lot of people's calendars just to soak up time and you are having really important, effective conversation. And then you're walking away with some really good action items so that if you have a schedule, a follow up at least where you left off and you can come and you just pick up and it's running more smoothly that way.

Josh Robles:

I mean, just sounds like being very deliberate with those initial meetings and kickoffs really making it something where everyone has a voice and it's all brought out in the beginning, is that where you're at?

Kimbaly S:

Yeah, definitely. Your terminology, like those kickoffs, PI planning is a lot like that whenever you get a new product, you're organizing your teams. Earlier, whenever you talked about kicking off a transformation, by that time they've gone through that and maybe you have some people that are still new and don't really understand what that process is. And so you have a couple agile trainings just to align on what we're not going to do. Like, "We're not going to demo work if it's not done. We're not going to accept work partially done. We're not going to carve out the testing work from the dev work. Those kinds of conversations are still needed no matter where you are in your process, because I feel like a lot of people need to be reminded of that.

And then you talked a little bit of the basics. What the roles are and going back into who's responsible and accountable for those things. Create yourself a RACI just to make it very clear. But ultimately I think once you've done that and you have the right people there, yeah, it's just whether it's a kickoff or it's a PI planning, it's the start of a product, you do want to make that you're scheduling it appropriately, effectively, you're considering the time. And especially if you're working across time zones, you don't want to just schedule at a ungodly hour or for one whereby it may benefit another.

Yeah, and just make sure it's really structured and come to the meeting with an agenda and you leave with action items and everybody knows what they're going to do, because I think one thing that effective scrum masters, agile coaches are doing is that they're having structured conversations and they're walking away with action items and they're ensuring that individuals are held accountable to that.

And so if you have a PI planning again, I mentioned how stale it could be. 2, 3, 4 hours even, because I've sat on calls where it's four hours long and they're estimating the entire backlog, you know? It gets a little boring and so how do break that up? Like I said, I'm a fun person. I want to make sure that I'm not just having random people in the mix. I want to make sure that I'm having the right people, but yet the invitation is extended to everybody and we're having very structured conversations. And then we take small breaks and we follow up with action items. We make sure that everybody's being held accountable. So all of those things come full circle whenever you're having these kickoffs or these PI plannings, but it's really essential that you're doing it and that you're listening out that everybody's involved and that they're contributing.

Because I think another thing too, just on that is whenever you are working remotely and it's not required to come on camera, you still want to find a way to pull people in and make sure that they are contributing and finding value in that process. Because I think one thing that we've seen communication after communication is that there is burnout and you don't want to just schedule meetings for the sake of scheduling them. You want to make sure that they're effective, and again, that good conversation is coming out of it.

Josh Robles:

You brought up earlier after that 90 days of transformation they're going to be in a whole different level of productivity and just alignment. How do you stabilize that and keep that progressing? Does that make sense?

Kimbaly S:

Yeah, so I mean, from my perspective, I've noticed that even for me, because I could get burned out if I'm just working with the same group or the the same program consistently. So you change out. I don't encourage a lot of change management at the team level, the squads, pods whatever you want to call them these days. But I do feel like there is some value in if they want to maintain stability, then how their coached may provide some value in that direction. And so I know that I'm a good coach, I know that I would work with an array of really... Very smart, intelligent coaches, and so we don't change what they're doing but we change the coach. We do a transition, I work with one group for three months and then I move on to a different program so that I'm still getting the knowledge of what the organization is doing across, across teams, across the entire enterprise.

But at the same time, those teams are maintaining that stability because how they're being coached, whereby we're coaching to the same goal, and we have the same vision. And we're all thinking about how we can satisfy the customer, how we can drive value, how we speak to that is going to be different. And so I may come in, whereby John Dor has just let left and he was more like very textbook or very prescriptive and I come in and say, "Okay, we're going to go off script. I want to invest in you. I want you to tell me what you're doing? How can I work with that?" And they're like, "Wow, this is really great." And they pick up and they get into a new swing of things. They get a new energy, right? And then I phase out after three months and then they get a new coach, and that coach comes in and they just really go in because they provide this different energy.

And I think that a lot of companies are seeing the value in that not to, again, change the tools often, or change the resources often, or move people from one product to another. Let's change leadership at that level and let them come in and let's see how much excitement, how much energy they can provide, how they rally the masses. And there's a lot of success in that. And so whenever you mention stability that, from my experience, it hasn't been, "How can I maintain... Make sure that you're doing what you're going to do." Because even at that two, three month mark we've been doing this thing for a little bit now I'm not seeing a whole bunch of change. Maybe it's how our coach that's going to help change them.

And so just for an audience who's wondering, "How do I maintain stability? I've been working with the team for so long." Make sure that you're having really engaged retrospectives, make sure that you're finding a lot of value in your meetings. And then we mentioned being on camera, but do something off the cusp like change a meeting to reflect, "Oh, we're going to have a dress up day." And anything to get them from the norm is I guess is what I'm saying, because a coach can transition in three months and they can get that different excitement but if you've been with a team for a year and you want to maintain stability, and they're a well- oiled machine and they're doing all the right things, but just feels stale and we're stable, but there's a lot that goes into that.

Their numbers are good, but are they happy? Are they really producing to their max capacity? And so how do you tap into that? You change things up, and again, because change management can be a bit rough depending on what you're doing. And, again, I'm not saying change all the tools, but change the people, change how you structure your meetings, change the order in which your meetings are held, change agenda, the platform, or the types of conversations that you have in your meetings. And I think a lot of those like really small things can contribute to a team's overall success in how stable they can be.

Josh Robles:

It sounds like you're not trying to knock them off balance, you're trying to re-energize them with just a new shape of the same thing. So like rather than letting it get stale where they might start backsliding or something, or start making more mistakes. It's more like you're keeping it fresh, I guess, whereas you're not allowing... Like in your position, you're not there for a year, you're there or for three months so that they can have that quarterly rotation almost where it's just keeping things lively, I guess.

Kimbaly S:

Yeah. I think that's a really great way to conclude that because I mean, I can't imagine, I mean, you probably have or there are some people who are probably listening or reading your articles and they will understand that they've been doing the same thing day in, day out for a year, two years, three years, five years. And how can they imagine it to be any different? How can they provide a different level of excitement? And I did a Dress-up Mondays. It was a typical standup, but I requested that everybody show up on camera dressed up, and it wasn't my idea. It came from the team too, it was just a [inaudible 00:35:17] bring in [inaudible 00:35:17] retrospectives, bring ideas from the team. But it was a really great idea because what they were saying without saying it was, they missed connection, they missed people.

Yes, they could get on a call. Yes, they can talk about what their goals were and how they were going to tackle them, but they needed a little boost to do it and so that's all this really is. It's just little doses, little boosts to better make them more of a stabilized team so that they can become and maintain stability and that well oiled concept. And so yeah, come on camera dress up, it stand-up, but we're going to do that in cowboy hats and prom dresses. Just anything that you can't wear, that's been in your closet for years, bring it on your Monday call. This is where it happens. And it's just that little bit of difference, that little bit of connection when we just sit back and we just laugh a little bit because it's not the norm that reenergizes them and provides them this extra boost.

Josh Robles:

I think we're getting close to the hour. I wanted to give you a chance to give advice to anybody that's stepping into a role that's like yours.

Kimbaly S:

Yeah. I would say coming into the role, don't be prescriptive. Listen to the team, listen to the business, listen to the way they move. Interview as many people as you can, sit in on meetings whereby you don't feel like you're going to provide value, or you're not going to take anything away because in those calls you find people who are silently screaming for attention, whereby they need the coaching, they need the guidance and the mentorship. And I've managed to find a lot of successes in that and I think that you can too, if you just listen and don't go in to an organization with a more rigid and structured mindset and you have it already made up that, "This is how things should work out. This is how things should go."

Every organization's going to have different goals, different problems. You're going to have people who love scrum, some who don't. Some who want to be super lean, who are going to provide a loT of value in your process and maybe even be an ally. My advice is to take that, listen to them and really just be open to change whereby you are a person who's coming in to help enforce what that looks like. And I know enforce sounds a little bit strong, but you're encouraging that conversation, you're encouraging process. And I say all that to say, you may be the person to help start those conversations or continue those conversations, but don't be surprised if valuable input comes in from a different direction. Listen to the company, listen to the people who you're helping in your servant leadership role, and listen to the organization and I think you'll be in a really good place.

Josh Robles:

That's awesome. Well, Kimbaly, that was really great. I'm excited for a lot of the things you brought up. Thank you so much for the time today.

Kimbaly S:

Oh, thank you too, Josh. I appreciate it.

Thank You.

Josh Robles:

Thank you for listening to All Hands on Tech. To see show notes and more info, visit pluralsight.com/podcast.